Same Time Next Week? | S1 Ep8 | Steph's Therapy Story Part 2

Season 1 | Episode 8

Steph's Therapy Story Part 2: One Year Later


In part two of this two-part episode, Michael sits down with Steph Barron Hall once again, only this time a year into her therapy experience. Steph shares how she has learned self-compassion and how to allow time for herself in order to process her thoughts. She talks about how she has become a more healthy Enneagram 3 and can let down her walls and be more authentically herself. After listening to Part 1, we think you’ll hear a whole different therapy story.


  • Self-esteem

  • Fear of being authentic

  • Self-compassion

  • Personal strengths

  • Finding time to process your thoughts

  • Outgrowing your therapist and finding another

  • Automatic negative thoughts


Episode Transcript

Michael Shahan 0:01
Hi. Welcome to the same time next week, the podcast where we demystify the therapy experience by talking with people who share their own personal therapy journeys. In each episode, we begin to uncover what therapy actually is, how it works, what helps, what doesn't, and everything in between. I'm Michael Shahan, a marriage and family therapist in Kansas City. Let's get started. Today's episode is part two of my conversation with Steph. This episode was recorded about a year after my first conversation with her. I really hope you enjoy this episode. Tell me the difference how long you were in therapy when we record our first episode. And now how long you've been in therapy. Now.

Steph Barron Hall 0:44
So when we recorded the first episode, I think I had been in therapy about a month maybe. Okay, yeah, I will say that, before that I had done a lot of like spiritual direction, and, you know, couples therapy and all that kind of stuff. So it wasn't like my very first experience with therapy. Okay. But this time around, it had been like a month and a half month.

Michael Shahan 1:05
So What about now? How long? Because I know you've done it a lot more than we've talked last.

Steph Barron Hall 1:11
So I was in therapy from last July to last month. So June, so like 11 months?

Michael Shahan 1:18
Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. And so you and I talked the other day about how different things were for you. And yeah, Tell us. Tell me about some of the thoughts that we that you have about that. I mean, I don't know if I need to answer questions. Just talk about Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall 1:32
sure. So I think that I when I listened to the episode, which, by the way, I hate it. Because when I'm on podcast, I never listened to the episodes, you know. So I was just like, Okay, listen to this, whatever. And so some of it, I was like, Okay, that sounds good. And I was like, you know, this sounds really good. But like, I feel like I'm acting and I don't think that I was consciously acting at the time. So I very much heard myself, I think I was really optimistic about how therapy was going to go and how linear it would be. And those sorts of things, you know, that little honeymoon period that we all have? And I think, I mean, they're just so many different things. But I think after that I was able to, like, listen back to it, and I texted I was like, sounds like I'm going for an Emmy. I mean, yeah, like I said, I don't think I thought I was acting, I don't think I thought I was being inauthentic. And I think that's something that people need to know about threes is that I don't think threes consciously or like, I'm gonna act different than who I most threes don't consciously think that. I think they don't realize that they're doing it, or they really believe that they are that person. Yeah. They just are highlighting the good stuff and low lighting the bad stuff, you know?

Michael Shahan 2:59
Yeah, naturally, you think you've been doing that without even realizing it? Yeah. Wow, what so what I want to talk about today for sure, like in getting into that from this is like your growth in therapy and your growth therapy is uniquely can be uniquely looked at through this lens of like your and you're an enneagram three. And so these are the kinds of things that you tend to work on. And so what's because you're telling me that I want to like it's like, there's so much of this podcast is about self growth and how we grow through therapy and the things we learn about ourselves. And like, it's, I'm hearing you say that, looking back at that you didn't even like, one of the things that you've learned maybe is how much you tend to do that without realizing or, or just having distance from that episode, let you realize how you can tend to perform in that way.

Steph Barron Hall 3:44
So, I mean, this is one of the things about therapy for me. So it was not, this is not like a typical thing. Maybe it is a typical thing of enneagram threes, but for me, one of the big things that I went to therapy for was like I literally had, like zero self esteem, basically, whoa, I think through that process, I was able to see well. And I would often say like I have zero self esteem, like I have no self confidence. I don't believe I can do anything, which people who know me probably wouldn't think that unless they know me well enough. Because I think that part of the acting or part of that self deceit, you know, aspect of the three is is to show like, Hey, I'm making this look easy. You know, I'm making this look polished and making it look linear. I'm not making it look, whatever. So I think for me, a lot of where that lack of self esteem or lack of even, like lack of sense of self came in was through this need to perform right? Or this need to or fear of judgment if I was authentic.

Michael Shahan 4:48
Whoa, yeah. So a fear of being authentic.

Steph Barron Hall 4:51
Yeah, but it's so subconscious, right. Like it's so sneaky, like it's it's just not something that is at the forefront of your mind. Right? So yes, yeah. Now I feel like through a lot of the stuff that I've done, I feel like through therapy and coaching and just reading and my own personal work and all this stuff, I think I've one refocused my interest in the enneagram to like actually using it for personal transformation. So that's been really helpful. But then also just being like, it's okay. If people don't like me, or it's okay, if you know, people judge me, or people see the real me or whatever. Wow. So I think that's one of the things that therapy really helped me with, because it's a greater sense of self compassion, and a greater sense of self. Those things are connected, I think to like, when you have that sense of self compassion, or self acceptance or sense of self or self esteem all these things right, then you are a little bit more free to let people just think what they think you know,

Michael Shahan 5:59
because you don't need them to think something about you because you have your own self passion, like you like yourself enough that you don't necessarily need that for other people. So it just kind of naturally lessons. Is that what you're saying? You've noticed? Wow. And I love that you mentioned that like that's, it's sneaky. And it kind of works below the surface. And like, that's one of the things in therapy that happens is like helping people find those narratives under the surface that run the show in our lives. But we don't have, but we have no idea that they are running the show. Yeah. Which is the craziest thing. And like, we can't see that at first. And that's Yeah. But you're starting to see you're seeing that in a huge way now. And then now that you've seen that, you look back at that episode, and you're like, Whoa, I was operating so much out of that place. But I didn't even realize it. Kind of

Steph Barron Hall 6:46
Yeah. And I think that's why it was a little bit shocking to listen to. Because I was like, oh, wow, like, that's a totally different perspective and a different aspect of myself. And not to say like I have it all different or fixed or whatever now, or polished or anything. I'm just saying like, like, I don't know what I don't know. So I might come back to this and eight months and be like, Oh, you're an idiot,

Michael Shahan 7:12
I hope not but I get what you're saying. Yes, that makes sense.

Steph Barron Hall 7:19
Yeah. And I think just to I want to say, listening back to that. I don't think I had a sense of Wow, you're an idiot. I had a sense of like, Oh, wow. Like, there were I was laughing at myself. You know, I was laughing at like, oh, wow, you're like really performing here. But also, I know that I didn't think that at the time. I know that I didn't until maybe I wasn't I didn't think I know, I didn't think I was performing at the time. Okay. Like, I know that I wasn't going on a podcast and trying to be like, look at how awesome I am, you know, in this context. But I think and so I have a lot of compassion for that person and aspects of myself that needs that.

Michael Shahan 8:01
That's cool. I like that a lot. So in your own, like therapy journey over the last year ish. What do you think has let you see yourself in a different way? Does that make sense? Like what has happened in therapy, to let you see yourself differently? And to see these patterns more directly?

Steph Barron Hall 8:17
I mean, my therapist was very direct, you know. And I appreciated that because a lot of the time she just be like, what are you know, that's not accurate? Or she would challenge my assumptions about what something meant it and helped me to see what I was making it mean about me, even if it didn't really mean that thing about me. And just like, gosh, I have no, I feel like it's so hard to put words to. Sure. I think I think it's a combination of a lot of things.

Michael Shahan 8:51
I figured Yeah, and maybe we can speak to some of those things maybe or it just it also, I think this also highlights your difficulty answering this just how gradual of a process there can be like, it's not just one thing changes everything. Yeah, it's like this culmination of months and months of of doing these things, and looking at myself and having these talks and experiencing these things. Like, there's not one moment to look back and say, this is where the change happened. So it can be confusing, I think.

Steph Barron Hall 9:16
Yeah. And also, I haven't slept more than six hours a night in the last week. So I almost like I was like, Oh, I should I should reschedule with Michael because I haven't been sleeping and like I this puppy is driving me crazy and stuff and then I just it's just, it's fine. It's gonna be fine. Even if you don't sound like the most articulate version of yourself, it's gonna be fine.

Michael Shahan 9:39
And even that I think just highlights your own growth work. Like that makes it like like even you're saying, oh, I'll do this even if it's not perfect to me. Is this like this actual representation? Like you making decisions and work going through life with more compassion for yourself and not needing to be this perfect version of yourself?

Steph Barron Hall 9:59
Yeah. Yeah, and I think I mean, even like, so I just alluded to puppy, I were like fostering this puppy. And typically when I make decisions, I am like very, like, I have to think through it and how, what's the plan, you know, for how it's going to impact everything. And I have a harder time just actually saying, Okay, I'm just going to do this sometimes. And then sometimes it's like, impulsive, you know, but I don't know. So with this even I was just like, I've had to be like, okay, it's okay, that this is harder than we thought.

Michael Shahan 10:37
Oh, yeah. Know, like, you're talking to yourself there. Yeah, what you're saying.

Steph Barron Hall 10:42
And, and it doesn't mean that I made a bad decision. Like, things are just harder than we think they're gonna be some times and you can't foresee that, wow,

Michael Shahan 10:51
there's so much self compassion that I can hear in that in the way you're talking to yourself.

Steph Barron Hall 10:57
So the cool thing, I should also say, so like, aside from therapy, things that have been really helpful for me, I have been meeting with somebody who's a health coach, she's like a health and wellness coach, but she's really, really skilled at helping people gain clarity on like, purpose, and what they really want in life and things like this. And so she used the strengths profile thing. And for so long, I would just have a really hard time, like actually feeling any of my strengths or experiencing them or seeing them, but it's almost like, I felt like I didn't want to get too big of a head about stuff.

Michael Shahan 11:32
Interesting, like, didn't want to own your own strength.

Steph Barron Hall 11:35
Yeah, like, because that would be bad. Or that would mean I was too conceited or self centered, or these things and so, or, or it could mean that I have inflated my sense of self without knowing it. And then somebody is gonna come around the corner and be like, actually, you suck at that and like, pop it, you know?

Michael Shahan 11:54
Wow, okay. Sure. Right. So yeah, it's all these fears of what it could mean. So

Steph Barron Hall 12:00
Through therapy, and all these different things, I have really learned how to own those, like my strength, everything. I'm actually keep them on my desk right here. So I put out all of my have strengths in this and then you have, you have realized strengths. And then potential strengths, I think is the word. But, you know, I have like, all of them cut out right there. And yeah, to like little cards. And then when I need like, encouragement, I'll go and I'll just like, randomly pick one, like, it's a tarot card or something I'm gonna use today.

Michael Shahan 12:37
Wow, what did like a direct opposite shift from not wanting to own them to like, go to intentionally owning them, like, so far, like you have a physical copy of them on your desk, and you read them?

Steph Barron Hall 12:47
Yeah. And so then, in addition to that, I read the book, self compassion by Kristin Neff, which is really, really helpful for me. And then the other big thing is the book emotional agility by Susan David. Okay, so those two books, I think were really groundbreaking.

Michael Shahan 13:05
Wow, what about those books shifted things for you? Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall 13:08
I feel like the big thing that we are socialized to think is if you have self compassion, you'll like automatically just go soft, essentially, like, and you won't motivate yourself. And, and I used to really believe this too. And probably part of me still does about, like, if I'm not driven by performing for others, I won't ever do anything interesting or important. Whoa.

Michael Shahan 13:36
So if you lose this, like thing that has motivated you your whole life, then you're worried that you won't get lazy. Whoa, okay, if you don't have this gap, okay.

Steph Barron Hall 13:46
And I think I have a lot of the same narratives around like, working hard, like, and so being like, you have to, you have to get up and you have to do right now. You're so stupid. He can't just not do that, like these, these tapes that we're in these things that we say to ourselves and like, really self critical, you know?

Michael Shahan 14:02

Steph Barron Hall 14:03
Wow. And so what these books, I mean, I would say self compassion that one exhibits and then emotional agility offers data around is this idea that having self compassion actually makes you more able to do the things that you want to do and more productive, not less. And for me, too, I was like, Well, now Stephanie, we can't just like start doing the self compassion thing, because it's gonna make us more productive. That's not the case of compassion so that you can continue to be more productive. Yeah,

just having that be. itself.

Michael Shahan 14:40
Yeah. Wow. Okay. Interesting.

Steph Barron Hall 14:43
So I think that's been helpful. And it doesn't, I mean, just the other day, I was like, super mad at myself about something. And I was like, This isn't a very useful way to think about this.

Michael Shahan 14:58
Like I hear you saying like that That's kind of funny and ironic that thing, but I also think like that it's not gonna hurt, like if using your the needs and once you already have to drive you towards self compassion. I don't think that's like cheating. I think if it gets us there, it gets us there. I think in a sense. Yeah,

Steph Barron Hall 15:13
I don't know. Like are you saying that about the productivity thing?

Michael Shahan 15:17
Yeah, like maybe that's the boost you needed to find this self compassion thing? And then once you like, does that make sense? Like you that's the what sort of led you there initially was your drives in narratives you already had?

Steph Barron Hall 15:28
Yeah. And then I think though for me what ends up happening with with things like that is like, it's not true self compassion, right? Because it's not like, it's like if I just talk to myself this way, then I'll be able to do this better deal driven

Michael Shahan 15:44
by the same things. There's always things like real self compassion. Yeah. So

Steph Barron Hall 15:48
it's just taken a lot, I think to let it actually sink in. So, yeah, I feel like that's been a huge growth tool for me. And to also say, like, what if people don't think I'm great? What if I think this is a strength of mine and other people don't think that. Like, is that okay? You

Michael Shahan 16:07
know, wow, what a hard. What an interesting question. not convincing myself that everybody thinks I'm great. But letting myself be okay. If they don't think I'm great. Sort of wanting to get there.

Steph Barron Hall 16:19
Yeah. And also being okay with me thinking I'm pretty good. And other people thinking I'm not at all. Yeah, yeah. Because I think before it was like, if other people even one possible person might think that I suck, then. Then I suck. Right.

Michael Shahan 16:35
Wow. Yeah, that's like, you just absorb that. Yeah. Hmm. Even in the way you see yourself.

Steph Barron Hall 16:41
Yeah. Whoa. Which again, that is very much type three, personality pattern and a lot of ways. Yeah. And it's very sneaky.

Michael Shahan 16:49
Yeah, it sounds like that's, you said a couple times like this. The sneaky. I think that's one of the biggest things like things in there. But like, we see these things that are so sneaky, and they have so much power over us. But we have no idea, which seems so weird that these things are just running the show and these huge ways, but but without seeing them. Yeah. Was this a difficult process? At times? I'm assuming it wasn't just rainbows and butterflies? And yeah, no, I'm having self compassion for myself. Like, were there times that were hard or uncomfortable or confusing?

Steph Barron Hall 17:15
Yeah, I think that I think things just take along. Like, I've just learned that things take longer for me to sink in than I want them to. Okay. And so one of the things that has actually been very helpful for me, is to reduce the amount of input I'm getting, and to let things actually marinate. So for example, in typically in a week, I might read two books, listen to, you know, eight to 10, podcasts, watch an online course, and also read the news every single day. Wow. Okay. And that is like so much input. But it actually, when I was teaching my subtypes workshops, last month, I was talking about, I was giving an example for something and then I realized I was like, Oh, my gosh, I'm doing the exact same thing, as in this example, when I just always grab my air pods and put them in my ears and go turn on the podcast. Because when I'm listening to a podcast, especially a podcast, I like what's your very information base, or like the books I like, which are, like, nonfiction? That I don't have to be with my thoughts. I'm with somebody else's thoughts.

Michael Shahan 18:35
Wow, okay, that's almost feels easier or something.

Steph Barron Hall 18:38
And so I think that, to go back to your question, reducing that input has been very difficult, like being like, I'm not gonna intentionally listen to music or to podcasts every time. Maybe I'll choose music instead. Because music doesn't have the same impact for me. You know,

Michael Shahan 19:00
okay, it doesn't get you out of your head like podcasts do.

Steph Barron Hall 19:03
But that I think, allowed me to be with my thoughts a little bit more and to like, kind of be more curious and to observe.

Michael Shahan 19:11
But it was uncomfortable. The process?

Steph Barron Hall 19:13
Yeah, I mean, like, who wants to not listen to a podcast when they want to listen to a podcast? You know,

Unknown Speaker 19:20
yeah, yeah. Especially

Michael Shahan 19:22
like my cable you've always done. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which is, like, it's, I feel like that's the kind of self care that's not fun. Like, it's good for you. But it's not just like self care isn't just, I always think there's two kinds of self care like, at least like one that feels really good and as fun as relaxing and one that's like, I need to do this for myself, but it's gonna suck for a while. Yeah. Like, it's not as fun and glamorous and exciting as other things. Yeah. I was just wondering what drove you to like, decide I want to listen to podcasts and fill my head up with other people's thoughts less.

Steph Barron Hall 19:55
I think it was my therapist. Kind of just like she was even give me homework Really? Hmm. Because she didn't want to add another thing.

Michael Shahan 20:06
Wow. So her even like pointing that out? Or sort of

Steph Barron Hall 20:09
Yeah, and just being like, like drawing my attention to it because I don't think I would have ever realized

Unknown Speaker 20:15
that. Wow, okay, okay.

Steph Barron Hall 20:18
And also like, we have all these jobs I, I don't know about other people I and probably my family, my family of origin, right, we have these judgments around what is productive and what isn't. And so listening to something that's informative, feels more productive, than for me, then or even like, listening to an audio book feels more productive to me than like listening to music or watching a silly show, or it's almost like hierarchies. And so it's like, I'm not being lazy. I'm doing this, you know,

Michael Shahan 20:56
it's almost like this, this silly shows or fiction books or something, don't feel as productive and useful to sort of what those narratives that you have about who you need to be and how you need to move through life, like, kind of goes against those narratives like this is useless. This isn't helping me achieve what I want to achieve or be better or,

Steph Barron Hall 21:15
yeah, and also like listening to those, quote unquote, productive things. It's like good and valid, right? So I don't think I, and especially when my therapist first started pointing it out, I was like, it's fine. Like, I'm fine.

Michael Shahan 21:29
Was there a reactivity that you had when she started pointing those out? I

Steph Barron Hall 21:33
think it was, like, just a sense of like, you cannot pry this away from me. Whoa,

Michael Shahan 21:38
like, okay, like, don't you can't take this from me Don't do this or something. Whoa, was it? Was it a long process of her from like, when she started pointing it out and showing it to you is that we said, What's the phrase you said, calling it you're calling attention to it? From that point to when you started acting on it? And stop? Was that a long time? Did it take you out to like, get your head around and say, Okay, I do want to do this like, or was it? I'm curious about that.

Steph Barron Hall 22:04
I'm actually not sure. Because I don't recall. The pointed it out. Okay, but I do think that there's a strong sense that it like needed to feel like my idea.

Unknown Speaker 22:14
Okay. You know, like, you can't tell me what to do. Yeah. Like, you can't fire me, I quit kind of thing. Actually my idea.

Michael Shahan 22:24
Sure. That, wow. Yeah. And so she's sort of called attention to it. And then you started, I don't know, your mind just started kind of thinking about spending time. Looking at it wondering, seeing that it wasn't, no, cuz you're not saying that's bad to do. And I can't do that anymore. You're not like, just just go on the other end of the spectrum. Now, you're saying like, that's okay. But if it turns into me just avoiding my thoughts all the time, and then maybe that's not helpful.

Steph Barron Hall 22:50
Yeah, exactly. And also, I want to say when you were like, Oh, so you started wondering about it getting curious. No, I really don't. Okay. I was like, No, like, I'm fine. You know, that took me a while to come around. And I don't think that I ever even told her that I stopped listening. or reading so much all the time. Yeah.

Michael Shahan 23:14
So there's a rejection of it at first, for sure. I think that tends to happen, especially when somebody is like, no matter how, like gently and lovingly, they can call attention to these things that have worked for us for so long. And that we're like, so stuck in, there's going to be like defensiveness and or wanting to reject it. I think at least Yeah, I think that's the hardest part about being a therapist is the defensiveness that comes up. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I had my old supervisor might say that, like, the client walks in your office or clients walking in, they tripped over something, there's something under the rug, and they trip over it, and they trip over and they trip over it. Your job as a therapist is like pull up the rug and be like, hey, like, you're tripping over that. And then they're gonna be like, no, not a lot of times at first. Until like, still. Yeah, like that's an important part of it, I think in an uncomfortable part. For everybody, maybe less, non enneagram. Nine therapists, but for me, it's uncomfortable. I had to remind myself that this means we're actually probably getting some more good. Yeah, but not that I'm doing it all wrong.

Steph Barron Hall 24:18
Totally. Yeah, and I think just another so I was in an enneagram certification course. I mean, it's part of a very long certification, but a few months ago, and we talked a lot about what it's like to work with each enneagram type. And we were asked as each type, you know, what, what's important and, and then they were, they also gave guidance and for me, one thing that I just that helps me that process helps me to realize is when I show even like a little emotion in therapy Or like I offer up like, even like a small thing. There's normally a lot more under the surface,

Unknown Speaker 25:07
huh? Yeah, I

Steph Barron Hall 25:09
mean, it's just, like, helpful for me to have somebody who knows the enneagram. Because then they're gonna know that they're gonna know like, Oh, she's showing a little bit of something around this. Maybe there's more underneath. Yeah. And that's one area where I actually do wish that my therapist knew the enneagram because I do think like, unless I was actually like, sobbing, which only happened, like, I only cried, like, twice in therapy. But unless I was actually like, sobbing, it wasn't like she was, I don't think she always realized also, it was virtual. So I think it would have been a lot different in person, because you can see a lot more body language.

Michael Shahan 25:50
Oh, sure. Maybe she could pick up more emotion that was under the surface. And

Steph Barron Hall 25:54
like, honestly, all the therapy, video platforms are like kind of fuzzy. Fuzzy, so yeah, in my experience, there's like always, like a little fuzziness to it. It's like, you can't it's not that clear the video. Anyway. So I'm not trying to like, shit on her. Sorry, explicit.

Unknown Speaker 26:12
You can say that. Are you kidding me? These other episodes? Okay.

Steph Barron Hall 26:18
Hang on here. I was like, I was gonna be like, Oh my god, I'm so fucking tired then ask you better not bleep me, Michael. I would never anyway, no, so I'm not trying to say she's a shitty therapist. What I'm saying is that, I can't really expect her to know that about me. But I think that I needed somebody to know that about me. And it was really hard for me to share. And so by the end of our time together, I mean, part of the reason that we stopped meeting is because she was covered by insurance, which means that you have to be actually treating something and she did all the assessments, and I no longer had any of the diagnoses that I came in with. Oh, yeah. Okay. And so I think she would have been willing to continue meeting if I really wanted to, but it didn't, I don't think felt like, there's a lot of reason to do that. But also, I think I was realizing for myself, I was like, like, I think I might need somebody who's like a lot softer now. Whoa, okay. I think when I first went in, I wanted somebody who was really assertive and really, like, would call attention to stuff. But I think as I've just changed, like, I think that I've grown into a place where I do kind of want somebody who is a little bit softer, you know?

Michael Shahan 27:40
Wow. And so you sort of learned that. I mean, after having this experience, you're like, if I do this again, this is what I want different with my therapist. Yeah.

Steph Barron Hall 27:48
So what I'm saying is not that it's like, oh, that wasn't the right fit. I want something different. What I'm saying is that, I think it's like, this is so stupid. But I just like I can't think of another analogy. My brain isn't working today. But have you ever had hermit crab?

Michael Shahan 28:12
I have not personally, but I'm really excited about this. Now.

Steph Barron Hall 28:16
don't recommend but whatever. When I was a kid, I actually had a rainbow hermit crab named Larry.

Michael Shahan 28:23
Larry, that's a fantastic name for it. To be honest,

Steph Barron Hall 28:26
my sisters were like, like, Is he gay? And I was like, Yes, he's a rainbow. And I was just so excited about it, which is actually fascinating considering that I grew up in evangelical.

Michael Shahan 28:40
Well, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 28:42
yeah. But I was like,

Steph Barron Hall 28:44
love is love, at 11 years old. Anyhow. So it's kind of like that thought process of like, you know, this shell for now. And then when I'm done with this shell, I'm gonna detach from it and go to a different shell, like I want to in the way outgrow that shell, I'm gonna detach and go to a different shell. I guess another analogy is like shoes, like you grew out of a pair of shoes as you're growing up. That's a more human analogy, right. But anyway, so I think that is more what it is. It's not like that. The therapists that I had, like she I think she was a great fit for what I needed at the time. And I think now I'm like, Okay, I'm in a totally different spot now. And I want something different. So, yeah, I would say that's the difference.

Michael Shahan 29:27
Yeah, there's, you're not, you're not at all saying, and I didn't hear you saying that. Even like, you're not saying this, I wish she would have been different. You say like, that's who I needed then. And I'll need somebody else different now. And you're able to, like, discover what it is that you needed, even going after, which is fantastic, which is always encouraging every like find a therapist that clicks with you that you need, like maybe this kind of therapist and like you said, You thought you needed a therapist who was really challenging and direct at first and sort of realize you don't need that, but maybe that's, that's what you need then, and that's what you thought you needed and that's where you're at, like that's the place where you're at and that's how that's how you knew yourself. Which is this is as honest as you could be with yourself that I feel like,

Steph Barron Hall 30:04
yeah, yeah, definitely think so. There's something else that I said in the first episode that ws interesting. Oh, you talked about ants, ants, automatic negative thoughts. Oh, okay, which I did talk about in therapy a lot. And actually, that was also really helpful. I hated it. Like, and she gave me these exercises to do to like, identify them and stuff. But realizing that my biggest one is like negativity and pessimism was super, super helpful. Because it's remember how earlier I was talking about the strengths and being like, Oh, I can't let anyone think that I'm, you know, full of myself. And so I'm gonna deflate myself. In a sense. Yeah, I think that that kind of has like a similar operating mechanism, like where it's like thinking negatively first, is so much less vulnerable.

Unknown Speaker 30:53
Whoa, okay. sure

Michael Shahan 30:54
to like, start with a negative, negative or like a no. Like, it's less, it's less vulnerable. Why is that being

Steph Barron Hall 31:02
cynical? being cynical, you never really looked naive. You never get duped. Whoa. Because it's like, yeah, if you end up getting duped, it's like, well, I was writing anyway. Yeah. Okay,

Michael Shahan 31:13
almost like protecting yourself from those things. That make sense that would be more for more vulnerable to not lead with negativity, because you're like, there's a possibility of being hurt or being duped or whatever.

Steph Barron Hall 31:29
Yeah. And also, I thought it was really funny. Because so you did the intro. Like, this month, right? That episode. And I feel like another way that I've seen that I've really grown is like in business and just like running my own business. Because in that episode, I was like, my business is my Instagram page. And I was like, Stephanie, your business is not your Instagram page, your Instagram page is a marketing asset for your business. So you different from that.

Michael Shahan 31:59
So you've grown even how you see your own business, as well as how you work and all that stuff, which makes sense. I mean, I think you told me like, your business is always really, really personal. It's gonna hit always personal Make sense? As you grown as a person and seeing yourself differently than you might also see your business differently and kind of what it entails.

Steph Barron Hall 32:17
Yeah, and I think I just didn't really know how to, I don't know, I think I just didn't know what I was doing. I was also in grad school, so I was just like, stressed about that, too. But

Michael Shahan 32:29
Wow, that's cool. I've, unless you wanted it. Yeah, I just wanted to do this to highlight kind of, I thought it'd be really cool way to show where you were a few weeks into therapy versus like, close to a year in therapy and how because things that means. Like you mentioned earlier, you thought it was gonna be this linear process. But I mean, I don't know it's still kind of fit. But this, you're kind of in a place that you weren't expecting yourself to be in, things shifted so much that when you listen to yourself, you were just like, super weirded out on how differently I'm different. You sounded like your experience of yourself was different.

Steph Barron Hall 33:01
And it's interesting, because I feel like I feel like some people might listen to the episode and be like, wow, Faker, and some people might listen to and be like, Wow, she sounds so put together and polished, you know, interesting.

Unknown Speaker 33:10
Like, I

Steph Barron Hall 33:11
think you could have either reaction Yeah. And then listen to this episode, and be like, Wow, she's like, totally, like stream of consciousness just

Michael Shahan 33:19
get so different. And I think that's a bad thing. I think you're how I'm like perceiving you, or you're presenting yourself as very, very different than it was, what seems much more natural and unhurried and authentic kind of is how I've noticed a difference today, compared to last time.

Steph Barron Hall 33:38
It could be that sleep deprivation, but keep

Unknown Speaker 33:40
blaming these things on sleep deprivation.

Michael Shahan 33:45
Good and bad things, which is interesting.

Steph Barron Hall 33:49
Yeah, I just, I don't know. So I feel like that's part of the reason to why I wanted to do another episode. Because I think sometimes I was thinking about it as I was, I was listening to it. And I thought, What's my reaction to this? What do I want to do with this, you know, and we talked about this a bit, but I was like, Okay, I could manage my image, and just have him not post that one in and do a totally new one in which I would probably be doing the exact same thing. Oh, wow, the exact same performance thing, you know, unknowingly, or I could have him do a quick update at the end. Or we could do a totally separate episode. And I wanted to like lean toward doing a second episode only because I feel like sometimes you don't see a lot of like the messiness process for threes. Sure, and I feel that like, I feel not wanting to show it. I feel not wanting to be like a little bit unsure or a little bit. You know, that's I know, I often feel unsure.

Michael Shahan 34:55
So it's not gone from you. It's not like you don't have those worries anymore. It's like you can feel level one, right? It's present. But it doesn't really run the show like you can still keep moving in different direction, even though you feel that drive to like, perform, image manage and stuff.

Steph Barron Hall 35:13
And sometimes it does run the show that will totally Yes, like, Yeah, but I think also I have a lot more skills and tools to be able to, like, observe it and then be like, Okay, what do I want to actually do with this?

Michael Shahan 35:24
Whoa, okay. So it's not just automatically happening. You can like observe it and decide whether you want to, it's not just, I observe it in I don't do it. Now. It's I observe it. And now I can decide whether I want to sort of move forward with that or not like you, which feels like we're having a lot more control over yourself.

Steph Barron Hall 35:40
Yeah. Yeah. Like, recently, I had a business opportunity that would be really great. presented to me and I, but everything inside me was like, No, wow. Like, just gut reaction. No. And I said, No, wow. Even though if I did that thing, it would make me look really good. Whoa, that's impressive. I was like, I know, I just know, I don't want to. I was like, if at this moment when I'm scheduling this, I don't want to do it. I know when the time comes, that I have to actually go do it. I will not want to do. I'm really good at being like, Okay, well, let's look at the numbers. And let's look at how this will make you look and let's look at you know, all these different things. And I'm not always as good at listening to that other side of me. Yeah. And I think it has important things to tell me.

Michael Shahan 36:33
Totally. Yes. And it's to your own detriment if you sort of don't continue to ignore it. Like it's got some wisdom to it. But you've never had as much practice trusting that part of you. Yeah. I see it a lot with threes. Like it's this, their gut, it's hard to trust, like the more move to their head like, well, this makes sense. I don't care what my gut thinks like, this makes sense. So I should do this.

Steph Barron Hall 36:55
Don't you think that the three, six and nine I'll do that? Yeah. To an extent. Yes. Yes, I think so. There's, yeah, that anchor triad thing. Like it's sort

Michael Shahan 37:03
of anchor points. Yeah. Like wanting to use the other centers to get the needs of your own number of met, but not your center. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So thanks for sharing things for us. Again, thank you for being vulnerable and authentic and stepping away from the image management part of yourself. And I don't know what's been cool. I'm really appreciative of this episode, I think is a really, really cool way to end this first, like season to show this like practical, practical shift, and you think it's awesome. And I think it's very evident.

Steph Barron Hall 37:36
Now I have one question. Okay. For me, was this the best episode yet?

Michael Shahan 37:42
There's a lot of pressure. I do. Kidding. I'm totally kidding. Yes, you improved and this is the best episode you've ever done with me. Great.

Steph Barron Hall 37:56
I really wanted you to compare me against everyone else.

Unknown Speaker 38:00
Oh, everyone else with yours.

Michael Shahan 38:09
Thanks for listening to this episode of same time next week. Please feel free to share with your family and friends to help support the show and help us in working toward D stigmatizing therapy. So same time next week.

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